Bassem Khandaqji spent 21 years in Israeli prisons, winning the 2024 International Prize for Arabic Fiction for "A Mask the Colour of the Sky" while still behind bars. Now in exile, the Palestinian novelist speaks to Tarwida Podcast about writing secretly at 4am, smuggling manuscripts out of detention, and how imagination helped him survive and resist. He also introduces Adab al-Ishtibak — Literature of Engagement — and previews his next novel about late fellow prisoner Walid Daqqa.
Bassem Khandaqji is a Palestinian novelist from Nablus who spent more than 2 decades in Israeli prison, sentenced to three life terms. In 2024, while still behind bars, he won the international book prize for Arabic fiction (Arabic Booker Prize) for his novel Mask of the Sky (قناع بلون السماء). Released in October 2024 in a prisoner exchange deal, he now lives in exile in Cairo.
In this episode of Tarwida, Bassem Khandaqji speaks about writing novels under occupation, while writing was forbidden — drafting by hand at 4am, making three copies of every manuscript, and smuggling completed works out of detention.
The conversation covers the cultural and academic life inside Israeli prisons, its destruction after October 7 — what Khandaqji calls cultural genocide. He discusses his novels in depth, including how he spent a year immersed in Hebrew-language media to write his Israeli protagonist — thinking in Hebrew, writing in Arabic. He introduces Adab al-Ishtibak — Literature of Engagement — a framework for anti-colonial literature that dismantles Zionist ideology. He reflects on Yaffa, Jerusalem, Palestinian exile, and Mahmoud Darwish, and discusses his next novel about late fellow prisoner Walid Daqqa.
باسم خندقجي روائي فلسطيني من نابلس، قضى أكثر من عقدين في السجون الإسرائيلية بحكم بثلاثة مؤبدات. في 2024، فاز وهو خلف القضبان بالجائزة العالمية للرواية العربية (البوكر العربي) عن روايته "قناع بلون السماء"، وأُفرج عنه في أكتوبر 2024 ضمن صفقة تبادل، ويعيش اليوم في المنفى بالقاهرة.
في هذه الحلقة من ترويدة، يتحدث خندقجي عن الكتابة تحت الاحتلال — يكتب بخط يده في الرابعة فجراً، ينسخ كل مخطوطة ثلاث مرات، ويهرّبها خارج الاحتجاز. يتناول الحياة الثقافية داخل السجون الإسرائيلية وما لحق بها من دمار بعد ال 7 من أكتوبر، وعاماً أمضاه منغمساً في الإعلام العبري لكتابة شخصيته الإسرائيلية، ومفهوم "أدب الاشتباك"، وروايته القادمة عن الأسير الشهيد وليد دقة.
–
This episode is hosted and produced by Tala Elissa. Our executive producer is Zina Jardaneh. Our associate producer is Zeena Shehadeh. Social media by Leen Karadsheh. Research and copywriting by Dima Sharif. Branding by Sara Sukhun.
This conversation was recorded in person on February 8, 2026, in Cairo. You can watch it with English subtitles on YouTube.
Tarwida is a series of conversations that bring Palestinian arts, culture, and heritage to the forefront. We hear from artists, including writers, filmmakers, musicians, architects, and more, about their very own Palestine. In a nutshell, if you want to know more about (Creative) Palestine, this is the place to be.
Follow us on socials @tarwidapodcast
--
Relevant links and Resources:
00:00:00:07 - 00:00:02:08
I remember one of
the officers telling me:
00:00:02:08 - 00:00:04:23
"You're causing quite
a stir out there.
00:00:05:13 - 00:00:07:05
The whole world is
talking about you.
00:00:07:05 - 00:00:09:09
What's going on with you? How do you
even manage to write?
00:00:09:21 - 00:00:11:11
How do you take your
books out of prison?
00:00:11:15 - 00:00:14:11
That's when I realised how vital it is for
a Palestinian
00:00:14:11 - 00:00:15:16
to control his own narrative.
00:00:15:20 - 00:00:18:20
You can't imagine how upset,
pressured, and tense
00:00:19:07 - 00:00:21:19
that Zionist officer was,
threatening me,
00:00:21:19 - 00:00:25:02
warning me: "We're
going to deal with you.
"
00:00:25:17 - 00:00:26:11
So what did I say to him?
00:00:26:11 - 00:00:29:00
I said: "Had I known my words would
bother you this much,
00:00:29:00 - 00:00:29:24
I would have written a lot more.
"
00:00:29:24 - 00:00:31:21
And I provoked him further,
00:00:31:21 - 00:00:35:06"I promise, I'll give you a free
signed copy of the novel.
"
00:00:38:05 - 00:00:40:12
Welcome to Tarwida Podcast.
00:00:40:20 - 00:00:42:19
Today's episode is very special,
00:00:42:19 - 00:00:45:22
not only because this is the first time I'm hosting a
guest face to face,
00:00:46:02 - 00:00:48:11
but because this is the first time I'm
speaking with a guest
00:00:48:13 - 00:00:51:07
who managed to achieve great
success in the world of art
00:00:51:07 - 00:00:53:00
and literature from
behind prison walls.
00:00:53:13 - 00:00:56:22
Bassem Khandaqji is a Palestinian writer and
novelist who won the
00:00:56:22 - 00:01:00:24
2024 Booker Prize for his book "A Mask
the Color of the Sky"
.
00:01:01:03 - 00:01:05:07
Bassem spent 21 years in prison and was
released last October as part of
00:01:05:07 - 00:01:08:07
the prisoner exchange deal between Hamas
and the occupation state.
00:01:08:22 - 00:01:12:01
We recorded this episode on
the 8th of February, 2026.
00:01:12:06 - 00:01:14:11
Before we begin, we recommend that
you turn on notifications
00:01:14:11 - 00:01:17:15
and subscribe, and don't forget to follow
us on social media.00:01:18:19 - 00:01:20:20
Welcome, Bassem Khandaqji.
00:01:21:06 - 00:01:21:22
Thank you.
00:01:21:22 - 00:01:24:11
I feel very lucky to be
with you today in Cairo.
00:01:25:09 - 00:01:28:10
We want to talk about your works, of course,
and your journey
00:01:28:10 - 00:01:31:01
before, during and after prison.
00:01:31:15 - 00:01:34:05
But before we dive into all of that,
00:01:34:17 - 00:01:37:00
we'd love to know more
about you before prison.
00:01:37:00 - 00:01:41:12
Tell us a little about your upbringing, your childhood,
about Nablus...
00:01:42:08 - 00:01:46:19
Thank you, first of all.
I'm happy to be here with you,
00:01:47:21 - 00:01:50:16
this warmth, this connection...
00:01:50:16 - 00:01:54:05
It's wonderful to be with
you on Tarwida Podcast.
00:01:54:05 - 00:01:57:09
That's something I'm particularly proud of,
especially knowing it's
00:01:57:09 - 00:02:01:09
a group of Palestinian
women who oversee it
00:02:01:09 - 00:02:03:00
that's a source of
pride for all of us.
00:02:03:17 - 00:02:06:22
I am a son of Nablus city, known as Jabal Al-Nar(the Mountain of Fire).
00:02:07:23 - 00:02:12:13
I was born and raised there. I come from a
Palestinian family of fighters.
00:02:13:13 - 00:02:16:17
My family works in
publishing and books.
00:02:17:07 - 00:02:22:03
I grew up in that environment, raised inside my
family's private library
00:02:22:17 - 00:02:27:03
and perhaps that's where my
abilities began to take shape,
00:02:27:03 - 00:02:29:14
and where I began dreaming
of one day becoming a writer
00:02:29:14 - 00:02:32:03
or producing a body of writing.
00:02:32:20 - 00:02:36:05
Nablus, to me, is rooted in
heritage and authenticity.
00:02:36:20 - 00:02:39:07
It's where my national
consciousness was formed.
00:02:39:19 - 00:02:44:15
I also studied and learned there, and enrolled
in its university,
00:02:44:15 - 00:02:46:13
Al-Najah National University.
00:02:47:00 - 00:02:50:06
and my first steps in struggle and
resistance began
00:02:50:06 - 00:02:52:06
in that city during
the Al-Aqsa Intifada.
00:02:52:21 - 00:02:57:05
My arrest was in
November 2004, on charges
00:02:59:02 - 00:03:01:09of participating in and
planning several operations
00:03:01:09 - 00:03:04:23
against the Zionist army and Zionist
military targets.
00:03:04:23 - 00:03:07:24
I was subsequently sentenced to three
life terms
00:03:08:04 - 00:03:12:08
equivalent to 300 years in
prison of which I served 21 years.
00:03:13:23 - 00:03:17:16
And when you were young,
did you read specific authors?
00:03:17:16 - 00:03:20:21
Did you have literary
influences or inspirations?
00:03:21:01 - 00:03:23:22
Of course. I remember...
00:03:24:24 - 00:03:25:22
I'll tell you something:
00:03:26:17 - 00:03:29:05
everything we do in life
starts in our childhood.
00:03:30:10 - 00:03:34:01
A philosopher once said: the tragedy of man
is perhaps that he
00:03:34:01 - 00:03:37:15
was once a child. Everything begins
after childhood.
00:03:37:16 - 00:03:40:16
I remember the first
novel I ever read.
00:03:41:01 - 00:03:45:06
I was 10 years old, in fifth grade,
00:03:45:16 - 00:03:49:05
and it was a novel by the late great Syrian
writer Hanna Mina,
00:03:49:11 - 00:03:51:23titled "The End of a Brave Man.
"
00:03:52:18 - 00:03:58:03
I started reading it, and at the time they were also
airing the TV series
00:03:58:03 - 00:04:01:08
based on the novel, directed by a Syrian director,
Esmail Najdat Anzur,
00:04:01:08 - 00:04:02:07
I think that’s his name.
00:04:04:02 - 00:04:06:16
I used to tell my family what was going to
happen in the show,
00:04:06:16 - 00:04:09:16
getting ahead by reading the
book and explaining the plot.
00:04:10:09 - 00:04:12:14
There were a lot of difficult things in the
novel.
00:04:12:14 - 00:04:14:11
I used to ask my late father, may he rest
in peace,
00:04:14:11 - 00:04:16:13
"What does this word mean?"
00:04:17:07 - 00:04:18:24
But after I finished reading the novel
00:04:20:10 - 00:04:23:05
and saw the name of the
publisher on the cover
00:04:23:05 - 00:04:25:10
knowing it was a significant work,
00:04:25:10 - 00:04:29:11
I said: "When I grow up, I'll write a novel and
publish with this publisher”
.
00:04:30:02 - 00:04:32:23
That took me about 25 years.
00:04:32:23 - 00:04:36:09
And I don't think you imagined as a child
the circumstances
00:04:36:09 - 00:04:39:10that would eventually
make you a writer
00:04:39:20 - 00:04:45:03
No. Before prison, my earliest
attempts at writing were letters
00:04:45:03 - 00:04:49:19
to our neighbour's daughter, or to a girl I liked
when we were young,
00:04:49:19 - 00:04:51:06
or during university.
00:04:51:11 - 00:04:55:15
It began from there. I used to call it "scribbles"
,
the way we scribble
00:04:55:20 - 00:04:57:17
and try to write and create.
00:04:58:00 - 00:05:03:14
But the real experience was formed during my
detention, for several reasons
00:05:03:14 - 00:05:05:22
mostly essential to survival.
00:05:06:18 - 00:05:10:23
Writing during incarceration becomes an act of
existence and of freedom.
00:05:12:09 - 00:05:15:20
I didn't plan to pursue novel writing from the
beginning of my detention.
00:05:15:22 - 00:05:20:18
It took me a while before I recognised that I had the
ability to write a novel.
00:05:21:10 - 00:05:26:12
I started with articles,
prose pieces, and poetry, really.
00:05:26:12 - 00:05:30:04
I have two poetry collections
published in Beirut.
00:05:31:15 - 00:05:33:19
And there was great
support from my family,
00:05:33:19 - 00:05:39:03during my start in poetry and prose. And then I
transitioned to novels.
00:05:39:19 - 00:05:41:18
I shifted to novels
for several reasons.
00:05:41:18 - 00:05:46:00
Most importantly because
poetry could no longer carry
00:05:46:00 - 00:05:47:21
the idea I wanted to convey.
00:05:49:11 - 00:05:51:06
Also, I discovered I'm not a poet.
00:05:52:04 - 00:05:53:23
After writing two poetry
anthologies I thought:
00:05:53:23 - 00:05:57:11
"This isn't working for me. Let me try
something else.
"
00:05:57:11 - 00:05:58:01
Let’s try something else.
00:05:58:01 - 00:05:59:23
So I moved to the
world of novels.
00:06:00:07 - 00:06:04:10
My first real experience in fiction was the novel
"Misk Al-Kifayah"
00:06:05:05 - 00:06:08:05
that I wrote about the Khayzaran, mother of
Harun Al Rashid.
00:06:08:22 - 00:06:11:13
No one expected me to
write in that field.
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:13:20
I was reading a book
inside detention
00:06:14:04 - 00:06:18:13
about forgotten queens,
a book by Fatima Mernissi
00:06:18:21 - 00:06:20:16
and Al Khayzaran emergedfrom the text out of no where
00:06:21:08 - 00:06:22:12
and slapped me in the face.
00:06:22:20 - 00:06:27:11
A powerful woman capable of
controlling the entire Abbassi court,
00:06:27:24 - 00:06:29:05
Her story amazed me,
00:06:29:05 - 00:06:31:06
and I decided to
research her story
00:06:32:10 - 00:06:35:08
We had large libraries in the prisons, before the 7th
of October,
00:06:35:08 - 00:06:38:18
we had a wonderful cultural,
literary, and academic life,
00:06:39:04 - 00:06:41:15
which we brought about through our
struggles against the jailer.
00:06:42:02 - 00:06:45:17
That's where I began
writing the novel
00:06:45:24 - 00:06:48:10
and the primary goal
was for pleasure,
00:06:48:10 - 00:06:49:20
to enjoy myself
while writing a text,
00:06:49:20 - 00:06:52:20
so I deal with life in prison.
00:06:53:08 - 00:06:56:08
Because through the text
I could escape, I leave prison
00:06:56:16 - 00:06:58:15
and travel to somewhere
symbolically free.
00:06:59:09 - 00:07:01:08
And that's how the storybegan to develop.
00:07:02:18 - 00:07:06:13
I've read work by writers who wrote
while imprisoned
00:07:06:13 - 00:07:08:23
most of it was Syrian
prison literature.
00:07:09:20 - 00:07:13:10
And most of what I read
always revolved around what's
00:07:13:10 - 00:07:14:12
happening inside the prison.
00:07:14:12 - 00:07:16:18
As if the writer's aim
from inside the prison
00:07:16:18 - 00:07:21:04
was to document the situation to the
outside world.
00:07:21:14 - 00:07:24:24
But what's distinctive about your writing is that
almost all of your
00:07:25:19 - 00:07:28:07
novels take us to worlds
very far from prison
00:07:28:07 - 00:07:30:17
places that are hard to reach even as a
free person.
00:07:30:22 - 00:07:32:21
Whether we’re talking
about within Palestine...
00:07:32:21 - 00:07:38:09
We were just talking about how you may have
visited Yafa only once in
00:07:38:16 - 00:07:41:01
your life, yet your book
is largely about Yafa,
00:07:41:01 - 00:07:43:00
if we’re talking about the second part of "A Mask, the
Color of the Sky”
.00:07:44:04 - 00:07:49:00
You also have books from ancient eras like the
Abbassi period, etc...
00:07:49:08 - 00:07:52:01
Was it a conscious choice to
00:07:52:06 - 00:07:54:17
step beyond the prison
walls in your writing?
00:07:54:24 - 00:07:55:21
Absolutely.
00:07:56:20 - 00:07:59:20
From the very beginning, I did not want to engage in prison literature,
00:08:00:06 - 00:08:03:12
for many reasons.
00:08:03:23 - 00:08:07:08
One is that prison literature
had exhausted itself,
00:08:07:08 - 00:08:09:08
exhausted its capacity to express
00:08:09:08 - 00:08:10:08
and represent the
prisoners’ suffering.
00:08:11:10 - 00:08:14:03
Also, prison literature is
documentary and archival
00:08:14:09 - 00:08:18:16
it lacks the contemplative depth or
the capacity to break through the
00:08:18:16 - 00:08:24:06
walls and engage with broader
world or Palestinian concerns.
00:08:24:20 - 00:08:30:24
I also felt that if I transformed the
prison into a cultural launching pad
00:08:30:24 - 00:08:36:07
to reach the outside world, that
represented for me a form of
00:08:37:01 - 00:08:39:01cultural engagement with the jailer
00:08:39:07 - 00:08:44:09
and also a capacity to convey
my message to the world,
00:08:44:15 - 00:08:47:00
to move away from the prison and
create a time that is entirely my own.
00:08:47:02 - 00:08:49:10
That personal time is
the time of the novel,
00:08:49:19 - 00:08:52:02
when I wrote the
historical fiction novel.
00:08:52:13 - 00:08:53:19
There's a paradox here.
00:08:54:12 - 00:08:56:16
The easiest thing is for a person to write a
historical novel,
00:08:57:07 - 00:09:00:07
to go back to history, gather history books, and
begin to imagine,
00:09:00:17 - 00:09:02:10
because that reality has
already gone and ended.
00:09:02:10 - 00:09:05:10
So the task becomes
almost archaeological:
00:09:05:21 - 00:09:07:14
like excavating artefacts,
00:09:07:15 - 00:09:09:18
brushing off centuries of
dust, and cleaning them.
00:09:10:04 - 00:09:12:12
And then there's imagination, the
capacity to imagine.
00:09:12:20 - 00:09:15:04
The historical text
is a seductive one
00:09:15:04 - 00:09:16:08
it carries a uniquekind of allure.
00:09:16:08 - 00:09:16:23
It’s own framework.
00:09:16:23 - 00:09:21:09
Yes, and it has its own temptations in how we
write, how we imagine.
00:09:21:24 - 00:09:26:17
And I can say that what played the biggest role in
the ability to write
00:09:26:17 - 00:09:29:01
about historical subjects
was imagination.
00:09:30:01 - 00:09:33:13
Imagination, for a prisoner,
especially a life sentenced one,
00:09:33:15 - 00:09:36:15
when we say of a life sentenced prisoner, there
is no release date,
00:09:38:04 - 00:09:41:07
no temporal dimensions, no
past, no present, no future.
00:09:41:09 - 00:09:44:15
There is only stagnant
time. Dormant time.
00:09:44:21 - 00:09:49:09
That time is packed with iron, shackles,
locks, and suffering.
00:09:49:16 - 00:09:53:18
The jailer's aim, is to strip the life sentenced prisoner
of his humanity.
00:09:54:23 - 00:09:56:17
But what did I do?
00:09:56:17 - 00:09:58:21
"I wanted to pierce through the time of the
life sentence,
00:09:58:21 - 00:10:00:04
and find a time that
is truly my own.
"
00:10:00:07 - 00:10:04:01
I tried to create my owntime dimension,
00:10:04:01 - 00:10:08:10
somewhat metaphorical, and I
turned to the historical text.
00:10:08:15 - 00:10:11:03
That's how it began with
"Misk Al-Kifayah"
00:10:11:03 - 00:10:15:03
and I truly felt that
I had escaped
00:10:15:03 - 00:10:16:13
from the prison world,
00:10:16:21 - 00:10:18:15
and was able to create
a time dimension of my own
00:10:18:15 - 00:10:19:12
the time of the narrative,
00:10:19:16 - 00:10:23:20
whether historical,
Palestinian, or personal
00:10:23:20 - 00:10:25:05
as a fighter and resister.
00:10:25:08 - 00:10:27:12
The cities I wrote about,
00:10:27:20 - 00:10:29:11
like Yafa, for example,
00:10:30:02 - 00:10:35:07
I visited it as a small child, going with my late
father and my uncle.
00:10:35:18 - 00:10:37:17
When there wasn’t...
00:10:37:17 - 00:10:40:04
Yes, we would go on trips...
00:10:40:04 - 00:10:42:15
But, there wasn’t...
In a child's mind back then,
00:10:42:15 - 00:10:44:23
there were no
details of the place00:10:45:05 - 00:10:49:05
but the impression I had as a child was that this is our
city, this is ours,
00:10:49:12 - 00:10:51:20
that this city fell in 1948,
00:10:51:20 - 00:10:53:05
Yafa, the Bride of the Sea,
00:10:53:13 - 00:10:56:13
the songs about it,
Fairuz’s songs about Yafa.
00:10:56:17 - 00:10:59:08
As a child, I had this understanding
00:10:59:08 - 00:11:01:04
that this Palestinian city
00:11:01:04 - 00:11:03:02
is one of the most beautiful
Mediterranean cities.
00:11:04:21 - 00:11:07:02
But later, when I wrote about it,
00:11:07:17 - 00:11:10:23
I had seen it in photos and books,
00:11:11:09 - 00:11:12:24
I discovered that I
was writing about Yafa
00:11:12:24 - 00:11:13:24
because it was
living inside me.
00:11:14:07 - 00:11:16:24
We can live in cities, but they can also live
inside us,
00:11:16:24 - 00:11:18:04
and they stay with us
wherever we go.
00:11:18:23 - 00:11:21:23
I wrote about Yafa twice, once about the
19th century Yafa
00:11:22:18 - 00:11:26:12
during the era of Ibrahim Basha andMuhammad Ali Basha
00:11:26:12 - 00:11:27:14
when they came to Palestine,
00:11:28:06 - 00:11:30:19
and a second time I
wrote about 2020 Yafa,
00:11:30:19 - 00:11:32:15
the modern or contemporary
version of Yafa.
00:11:33:09 - 00:11:35:03
With the same details, and readers
who saw the text told me:
00:11:35:08 - 00:11:38:08
"You write as if you were wandering
the streets of Al Ajami neighbourhood.
"
00:11:39:06 - 00:11:42:00
There's also something
beautiful about Al Ajami, Yafa,
00:11:42:00 - 00:11:44:11
when you look at photos
of it from the sea,
00:11:44:18 - 00:11:47:18
you don't see just a
neighbourhood or a cluster of homes.
00:11:47:24 - 00:11:50:03
You hear a scream
suspended on the shore
00:11:50:17 - 00:11:53:24
a Palestinian scream, not
a Zionist or Israeli one.
00:11:54:03 - 00:11:57:19
It's a Palestinian cry, proof that the
neighbourhood exists and its people
00:11:57:19 - 00:11:59:06
endure despite all
attempts at judaization.
00:11:59:14 - 00:12:02:11
Today, there are real
attempts to judaize Yafa,00:12:02:11 - 00:12:07:12
by settlers coming not from
the Zionists living in Tel Aviv
00:12:07:21 - 00:12:10:15
no, but by the settlers who come from West Bank settlements,
00:12:10:23 - 00:12:12:09
to take over homes in Yafa.
00:12:12:21 - 00:12:16:24
Yet Yafa resists them, remaining steadfast, with its
Arab spirit intact.
00:12:17:07 - 00:12:19:15
Also, when I wrote
about Cairo, for example,
00:12:19:23 - 00:12:22:12
I wrote the Cairo of the
14th and 15th centuries,
00:12:22:15 - 00:12:26:22
the Mamluk Cairo, Al-Azhar,
Muqattam, the Citadel.
00:12:27:11 - 00:12:30:03
All of it written
through my imagination.
00:12:30:11 - 00:12:32:19
Imagination is what protects
the prisoner, as does dreaming.
00:12:32:19 - 00:12:35:19
To dream and imagine gives you the capacity
to separate from reality
00:12:36:07 - 00:12:39:15
these are the key factors that contribute to the success
of any narrative work.
00:12:39:19 - 00:12:41:02
Exactly.
00:12:41:22 - 00:12:46:12
You were telling me that
writing inside Israeli prisons is
00:12:47:04 - 00:12:48:08
practically forbidden.00:12:48:22 - 00:12:51:12
So how did you manage to
produce this number of novels,
00:12:51:12 - 00:12:57:24
about 7 or 8, from inside prison, despite it
being a forbidden act?
00:12:59:08 - 00:13:02:08
From the outset, writing
becomes an act of resistance
00:13:03:06 - 00:13:06:06
and, at the same time, you’re
being chased. The jailer...
00:13:07:03 - 00:13:10:14
Let's distinguish
between two periods.
00:13:11:03 - 00:13:14:18
There is the reality of the prisoner movement
before October 7, 2023,
00:13:14:18 - 00:13:16:02
and after that date.
00:13:16:08 - 00:13:24:08
Before October 7, we had some
human conditions inside detention
00:13:24:18 - 00:13:26:22
that meet the minimum
threshold of human dignity,
00:13:26:22 - 00:13:32:01
conditions that allowed the prisoner to continue
surviving inside.
00:13:32:01 - 00:13:35:01
And those conditions did not
come as a gift from the jailer.
00:13:35:07 - 00:13:36:15
We won them through our struggles.
00:13:37:00 - 00:13:38:11
We went on hunger strikes,
00:13:38:16 - 00:13:42:23
my last hunger strike lasted
42 days, only drinking water,00:13:43:08 - 00:13:47:08
in order to secure small gains and achievements that
would help us endure.
00:13:47:24 - 00:13:50:21
The prisons were full of
books and libraries.
00:13:50:21 - 00:13:52:21
We would get books as soon
as they were published,
00:13:52:21 - 00:13:58:06
brought in through family visits, the
Red Cross, through various means.
00:13:58:21 - 00:14:03:01
The warden would bring us those books
against his own will
00:14:03:03 - 00:14:06:06
we managed to get a hold of
books through our struggle,
00:14:07:00 - 00:14:08:15
and they were permitted
within that framework.
00:14:08:15 - 00:14:12:00
But any writing materials or
handwritten things were forbidden
00:14:12:05 - 00:14:14:17
in any form, if the prison guard found them,
he’d confiscate them.
00:14:14:24 - 00:14:16:22
So we used to hide our writings,
00:14:17:10 - 00:14:20:06
written in notebooks, as notes,
00:14:20:06 - 00:14:22:14
we'd write in them,
and conceal them.
00:14:22:14 - 00:14:26:19
But if there was a cell inspection, the prison warden
would confiscate them,
00:14:26:23 - 00:14:30:10
and punish us eitherby cutting off family visits,
00:14:30:10 - 00:14:31:22
or restricting access
to the canteen,
00:14:31:22 - 00:14:33:15
or denying us access
to the exercise yard.
00:14:33:22 - 00:14:35:02
There were many consequences.
00:14:35:11 - 00:14:38:01
Now, what does writing
mean in this context?
00:14:38:06 - 00:14:39:17
It becomes dangerous,
00:14:40:12 - 00:14:42:24
it’s writing under
pressure and threat.
00:14:43:05 - 00:14:44:13
And beautiful writing
at the same time.
00:14:44:17 - 00:14:45:17
Why?
00:14:46:02 - 00:14:47:04
Because when I’m writing,
00:14:47:04 - 00:14:50:12
I feel as though I'm writing
the final words of my life
00:14:50:12 - 00:14:53:03
or the last words before he
comes to confiscate them.
00:14:53:09 - 00:14:54:18
So let me be authentic with my words,
00:14:54:18 - 00:14:56:23
let me write with
everything I have:
00:14:56:23 - 00:14:58:22
hope, life, freedom,
will, and steadfastness.
00:14:59:07 - 00:15:03:06So I'd write and then
immediately hide my writings,
00:15:03:10 - 00:15:06:15
get it out of the cell, send
it to specific locations
00:15:06:24 - 00:15:08:03
where we'd conceal it,
00:15:08:10 - 00:15:11:02
until we’d succeed in getting it out and liberating it
from the prison.
00:15:11:04 - 00:15:14:04
Whenever I finished
a novel or a text,
00:15:14:12 - 00:15:16:11
I would conduct what I called
a "liberation operation"
00:15:16:19 - 00:15:20:12
how do we free it? How do we
liberate it from the prison?
00:15:20:16 - 00:15:25:20
There were several methods we used to smuggle
our texts to the outside,
00:15:26:08 - 00:15:28:20
I can’t share everything, because there are
still prisoners inside.
00:15:28:20 - 00:15:30:02
We don’t want to
reveal the secrets.
00:15:30:04 - 00:15:33:23
But we did succeed,
despite the prison guards,
00:15:33:23 - 00:15:35:19
we got them out
against their will.
00:15:36:21 - 00:15:42:00
I can say that not once did they manage to confiscate
a single page from me.
00:15:42:08 - 00:15:44:20
Of course, during the war,
they burned my notebooks,00:15:44:23 - 00:15:51:21
academic notes, all gone during the war. They
destroyed everything,
00:15:52:00 - 00:15:55:13
conducting a cultural genocide of all our libraries
during the war.
00:15:55:21 - 00:15:58:00
But when it comes to
my novel writing itself,
00:15:58:08 - 00:16:01:10
they never succeeded.
I won in that aspect.
00:16:01:14 - 00:16:06:23 It seems you
used more than one method to stay under
the radar.
00:16:08:01 - 00:16:09:21 Did you have a
specific routine?
00:16:09:21 - 00:16:11:19 Like a
certain times
of day you'd write?
00:16:11:19 - 00:16:15:06 Were
there people
protecting you?
00:16:16:23 - 00:16:20:15 There were
certain things, not a routine, let's call them
rituals,
00:16:21:02 - 00:16:23:10 especially
when I was starting the first chapter of a
novel.
00:16:24:10 - 00:16:28:03 When I felt
ready to write I knew it was time to
start,
00:16:28:03 - 00:16:30:07
pouring the text
out of my head,
00:16:30:16 - 00:16:33:22 I'd
usually write the
first chapter at 4 AM,
00:16:33:22 - 00:16:35:17 around
dawn,between 4 and 5 AM.
00:16:35:17 - 00:16:37:23 The
other prisoners in
the cell would be asleep,
00:16:38:10 - 00:16:44:06 and
the guard would
be bored of his shift
00:16:44:12 - 00:16:45:22 That's when I'd
start writing.
00:16:46:09 - 00:16:48:05 And
when I started
writing, I'd be afraid.
00:16:48:23 - 00:16:51:20
I'd actually tremble sometimes.
00:16:51:20 - 00:16:55:00
But when I started writing,
I'd have the ideas prepared,
00:16:55:00 - 00:16:59:18
I have a notebook beside me, like a
painter who carries a colour palette
00:16:59:24 - 00:17:02:15
I'd have one notebook for notes
and another for the writing itself.
00:17:03:04 - 00:17:08:08
But I'd tremble a little, be
a little afraid of the writing.
00:17:08:08 - 00:17:10:19
Why? Because I'd feel that
if it became hard, I'd stop.
00:17:11:16 - 00:17:14:01
Let me give a nice analogy:
00:17:14:01 - 00:17:18:01
It’s like the first time in your
life you want to tell a woman
00:17:18:01 - 00:17:20:00
"I love you"
, how will she react?
00:17:20:11 - 00:17:22:06
That's what the first page
of a novel felt like.00:17:22:08 - 00:17:25:00
I was afraid of
the blank page.
00:17:25:20 - 00:17:30:16
When I’d start writing, I’d
feel a little clumsy at first,
00:17:30:16 - 00:17:34:01
but then things would work out,
and gradually would emerge.
00:17:34:06 - 00:17:38:09
And if there was no music, no internal music in me for the writing
00:17:38:09 - 00:17:41:18
I wouldn’t write. I’d wait for
the musical rhythm to come.
00:17:42:14 - 00:17:44:19
There's always a hidden
music in the text,
00:17:45:09 - 00:17:48:07
and I'd cultivate that
atmosphere, and then I'd begin.
00:17:48:07 - 00:17:50:06
Sometimes I'd write for half
an hour, sometimes an hour.
00:17:50:10 - 00:17:54:18
After finishing, of course, I used to smoke, but
not while writing.
00:17:55:10 - 00:17:56:19
I don’t drink coffee
or do anything.
00:17:56:19 - 00:18:00:16
Why? Because this is an intimate ritual, no
smoking or anything else.
00:18:00:19 - 00:18:02:18
That's against the stereotype,
a writer who needs all these
00:18:02:18 - 00:18:07:12
I’m here to break the
stereotype of intellectuals.
00:18:10:00 - 00:18:15:12These superstitious rituals just to write, or
do anything...
00:18:15:12 - 00:18:19:15
No, I'd simply finish that first chapter, and after that
things would flow.
00:18:20:02 - 00:18:24:21
I'd carry a small notebook,
always with me all day.
00:18:25:01 - 00:18:27:23
Of course, I'd spend a lot
of time daydreaming, lost...
00:18:28:17 - 00:18:31:04
I relied heavily on
dreams for example.
00:18:32:16 - 00:18:34:09
Imagination had to be present,
00:18:34:09 - 00:18:36:10
it's my foundation, it’s
the ink of my imagination.
00:18:37:06 - 00:18:39:11
Then after writing, the
worry would begin,
00:18:39:15 - 00:18:44:05
where to put the pages,
where to hide them.
00:18:44:21 - 00:18:48:16
I used to feel like a
parent afraid for a child,
00:18:48:16 - 00:18:52:13
or a mother wondering where
her son or daughter is going.
00:18:52:24 - 00:18:57:17
I felt that weight. I used to say,
"God bless all the
fathers and mothers"
00:18:58:04 - 00:19:00:14
because I treated my
texts as my children.
00:19:00:23 - 00:19:02:16
My texts are my children.
So how do I write?00:19:02:16 - 00:19:04:09
How do I do this?
How do I proceed?
00:19:04:16 - 00:19:08:16
Up until the text is complete, I would
make three copies.
00:19:09:22 - 00:19:12:22
Three copies by hand,
my left hand...
00:19:13:10 - 00:19:14:21
Three copies of every page?
00:19:14:21 - 00:19:16:15
So, once the original was done, you would
make three copies from it.
00:19:16:15 - 00:19:19:15
I would finish the main original version and
make three copies of it.
00:19:19:24 - 00:19:22:09
Why? Because one copy
might get confiscated,
00:19:22:19 - 00:19:26:05
or if I wanted to send it out with someone who
was being released,
00:19:26:05 - 00:19:28:06
or moved to another prison,
00:19:28:06 - 00:19:29:19
it might get intercepted,
might be damaged.
00:19:31:02 - 00:19:32:07
So I made three copies.
00:19:32:11 - 00:19:35:11
And I never liked
anyone to copy for me
00:19:35:11 - 00:19:37:21
many fellow prisoners
00:19:38:01 - 00:19:42:21
would come and offer
to copy for me. I'd say no.
00:19:43:03 - 00:19:47:10And I didn't let anyone read it either not out of
arrogance or narcissism,
00:19:48:05 - 00:19:50:10
No, I felt the text
wasn't ready yet.
00:19:50:11 - 00:19:53:11
I operated by certain signals, this was
something hidden, a secret.
00:19:54:01 - 00:19:55:00
It was not ready to come out.
00:19:55:15 - 00:20:00:10
So when I'd make three
copies, three manuscripts...
00:20:00:20 - 00:20:02:06
I write with my left hand,
00:20:02:21 - 00:20:06:13
I'd feel my fingers would go numb, I'd get pain,
cramps, all of that.
00:20:06:14 - 00:20:07:14
Yes, not ordinary fatigue.
00:20:07:14 - 00:20:10:04
And you didn't want them to copy so they
wouldn't read it.
00:20:10:10 - 00:20:10:19
Right?
00:20:10:19 - 00:20:13:09
Yes, not because I
didn't want to share,
00:20:13:09 - 00:20:17:16
but because I treated it as a ritual of secrecy I
wanted to preserve it.
00:20:19:00 - 00:20:23:06
But before writing, I'd discuss a collection of
ideas with friends
00:20:23:06 - 00:20:26:00
like the martyr Walid Daqqa, may he
rest in peace,
00:20:26:00 - 00:20:27:13
who was one
of my closest friends.00:20:27:17 - 00:20:30:17
We'd debate ideas as he was writing, and he'd
come discuss with me,
00:20:30:17 - 00:20:33:04
and I'd do the same,
we'd sit and discuss.
00:20:33:13 - 00:20:37:03
But the general idea, the narrative arc, the
drama, the outlines,
00:20:37:03 - 00:20:38:06
I wouldn’t share any
of that with anyone.
00:20:38:06 - 00:20:39:10
That was my secret recipe.
00:20:39:10 - 00:20:41:18
So you'd sit and write
with you left hand?
00:20:41:18 - 00:20:43:19
Yeah, well I’m left handed.
00:20:43:19 - 00:20:48:03
Left handed.. All creative and
innovative people are left handed.
00:20:51:05 - 00:20:54:05
Who was the first person
who read your novels?
00:20:55:24 - 00:20:57:24
Inside prison while
I was writing, no one.
00:20:57:24 - 00:21:02:10
But once it got outside, the first person to read it was of
course my late father,
00:21:02:19 - 00:21:03:13
may he rest in peace,
00:21:03:13 - 00:21:05:18
He was the godfather of
the most beautiful words.
00:21:05:21 - 00:21:07:01
Was he a writer?
00:21:07:01 - 00:21:10:11No, but he had the library, and he had cultural
and literary sense.
00:21:10:11 - 00:21:12:05
He was the one who supported
and encouraged me.
00:21:12:16 - 00:21:16:01
And without my
family standing by me,
00:21:16:01 - 00:21:17:16
I wouldn't have done
any of what I did.
00:21:18:02 - 00:21:20:04
All the credit
goes to my family,
00:21:20:20 - 00:21:23:06
there's no official
or unofficial institution.
00:21:24:00 - 00:21:25:04 In Palestine
you’re on your own.
00:21:25:04 - 00:21:28:13 And
you waited for him
to give feedback? Or...
00:21:28:13 - 00:21:31:09 Yes, he'd give
feedback and he allowed himself to
intervene.
00:21:31:09 - 00:21:33:10 If I was
going to
write an article,
00:21:33:10 - 00:21:34:21 my father would
sometimes change the title of the article.
00:21:34:21 - 00:21:35:24 If he
didn't like it,
he'd just change it.
00:21:36:01 - 00:21:37:10 Like an
editor?
00:21:37:10 - 00:21:39:14 So I’d
tell him: "Dad,
you can’t do that,
00:21:39:23 - 00:21:43:03 The article islike a woman,
00:21:43:18 - 00:21:45:18 we
can’t play around
with it or change it"
.
00:21:45:18 - 00:21:47:02 He'd
say: "No, I want
to do it this way”
.
00:21:47:02 - 00:21:47:16 I’d say:
“Fine.
"
00:21:48:02 - 00:21:51:02 But for the
novels, my brother Yousef is the first to
read.
00:21:51:15 - 00:21:54:02 Yousef
is like the
guardian of my words.
00:21:54:18 - 00:21:57:00
He's my agent, my brother,
my beloved, he’s everything.
00:21:57:08 - 00:22:00:08
I give Yousef a lot of credit.
00:22:00:13 - 00:22:03:13
He is the one who decides.
I only know how to write.
00:22:03:13 - 00:22:04:12
When the text comes
out, he takes over,
00:22:04:12 - 00:22:05:11
when I need to
intervene in something,
00:22:05:11 - 00:22:06:08
he tells me not to.
00:22:06:20 - 00:22:08:00
We work together...
00:22:08:00 - 00:22:09:22
You trust them to make changes.
00:22:09:22 - 00:22:11:14
Of course, there are like a crew.
00:22:11:14 - 00:22:12:14
They’re the oneswho work on it.
00:22:12:14 - 00:22:19:22
And do they give criticism or make excuses
because you’re in prison?
00:22:19:22 - 00:22:21:00
No, here’s the main point.
00:22:21:20 - 00:22:26:09
I refused to put on the covers of my books that I
was a prisoner in jail.
00:22:26:14 - 00:22:27:05
Why?
00:22:27:19 - 00:22:32:03
Because I didn't want readers to go to a
bookstore and say
00:22:32:03 - 00:22:35:10
"Poor thing, he's a prisoner, let's read it
out of sympathy.
"
00:22:35:10 - 00:22:36:24
I don't want the
words "poor thing.
"
00:22:37:02 - 00:22:38:17
I don’t want anyone to pity me or
sympathise with me,
00:22:38:21 - 00:22:40:12
or read your work just
because I’m a prisoner.
00:22:40:14 - 00:22:43:14
Either you read my work because I write
well, or just don't.
00:22:43:23 - 00:22:48:14
That was the stance from the beginning,
and in the same way,
00:22:48:14 - 00:22:52:15
when feedback would come,
00:22:53:07 - 00:22:55:07
my brother would
send me comments
00:22:55:07 - 00:22:57:21
or notes to prison via the lawyer or
during family visits,00:22:58:01 - 00:23:01:23
there were many people
who didn't know I was in prison.
00:23:01:23 - 00:23:04:10
I'll share a lovely incident,
00:23:04:13 - 00:23:06:22
one of the most beautiful
comments I received.
00:23:07:12 - 00:23:10:14
There was a young man
from Jerusalem in the cell.
00:23:11:24 - 00:23:15:18
His family would come to visit him every two
weeks, from Jerusalem.
00:23:16:10 - 00:23:21:09
One time he came back happy
from a visit, and told me:
00:23:21:09 - 00:23:22:16
"My mother sends you
her warmest regards.
"
00:23:23:08 - 00:23:25:11
I said: "God bless her”
,
but I don't know her.
00:23:26:00 - 00:23:30:14
He said: "I asked my mother,
what she was reading on the bus,
00:23:30:14 - 00:23:31:09
did you bring something to read?"
00:23:31:09 - 00:23:35:17
She said: "Yes, I had a lovely novel
called "Misk al-Kifayah"
00:23:35:17 - 00:23:37:19
by a writer named
Bassem Khandaqji.
"
00:23:38:12 - 00:23:40:22
He asked: "By who?" She
answered: "Bassem Khandaqji.
"
00:23:40:22 - 00:23:42:04
He told her: "Mom, he's
here with me in the cell.
"00:23:42:04 - 00:23:43:12
She said: "Are you joking?"
00:23:43:21 - 00:23:45:11
She said: "What do you
mean? He's a writer,
00:23:45:11 - 00:23:48:21
he's outside, he's old,
he lives outside.
"
00:23:48:24 - 00:23:51:06
He said: “No, he’s with me, he’s here”
.
00:23:51:24 - 00:23:55:23
She couldn’t believe it.
I later sent her my regards.
00:23:56:22 - 00:23:58:12
After that, I discovered that yes,
00:23:58:12 - 00:24:00:03
there are people who can’t
believe that you're in prison
00:24:00:03 - 00:24:03:17
writing about history,
writing fiction.
00:24:03:17 - 00:24:09:00
The details you included like street names,
archaeological sites,
00:24:09:00 - 00:24:12:00
for example, if we're talking about "A Mask the
Color of the Sky"
00:24:12:18 - 00:24:15:05
they made me feel like you
were strolling through the city.
00:24:16:06 - 00:24:17:24
That's remarkable.
00:24:18:04 - 00:24:20:24
Also, when I found out
you were a prisoner,
00:24:20:24 - 00:24:24:17
I expected maybe the
language wouldn't be so precise.00:24:24:17 - 00:24:33:02
that there might be grammatical errors or some
slips due to pressure.
00:24:33:02 - 00:24:36:10
But no, the text was excellent.
00:24:37:05 - 00:24:39:23
It's clear you managed to
overcome all of these challenges.
00:24:40:01 - 00:24:45:07
When I told you I'm a bit afraid as I begin writing
the first chapter
00:24:45:10 - 00:24:46:10
why that fear?
00:24:47:05 - 00:24:52:20
Because this text goes to the reader. And the
reader has their own time.
00:24:52:21 - 00:24:54:13
They're not only paying
for the novel financially,
00:24:54:15 - 00:24:57:02
they're paying
with their time.
00:24:57:10 - 00:25:00:09
They want to sit down and
spend an hour or two reading.
00:25:00:09 - 00:25:01:16
And I must respect that.
00:25:02:06 - 00:25:04:18
I must respect the reader's time, their
investment,
00:25:05:05 - 00:25:09:04
by coming to them with
a tight, precise text.
00:25:09:14 - 00:25:13:23
I’m not claiming that I'm
writing brilliant novels
00:25:13:23 - 00:25:17:18
that belong in world literature.
00:25:17:18 - 00:25:21:10No. I want to write a novel that
achieves a set of goals,
00:25:21:10 - 00:25:22:11
the most important one,
00:25:22:21 - 00:25:28:01
entertaining the reader and trying to influence
their knowledge.
00:25:28:10 - 00:25:30:03
Because the novel is ultimately about
consciousness.
00:25:30:03 - 00:25:31:19
We enter a person's consciousness,
00:25:31:19 - 00:25:35:18
how do we contribute
to its development,
00:25:35:18 - 00:25:37:02
to shaping a certain
kind of awareness?
00:25:37:02 - 00:25:38:11
All of these questions play a role.
00:25:38:20 - 00:25:42:18
Writing about Jerusalem, for
example, was a great challenge.
00:25:43:12 - 00:25:44:15
When you write
about Jerusalem,
00:25:44:15 - 00:25:45:16
you're writing about a
cluster of civilisations,
00:25:45:19 - 00:25:47:08
a cluster of cities.
00:25:47:08 - 00:25:48:19
The Old City in Jerusalem,
00:25:49:06 - 00:25:54:19
is a historical and sacred weight that is both
terrifying and magnificent.
00:25:55:17 - 00:25:58:18
So when I wrote it, I described the Old City
and the Via Dolorosa,00:25:58:18 - 00:26:02:11
the path of Christ's suffering, where he came from
and where he went.
00:26:03:05 - 00:26:05:12
That scene was alive in my mind, I had
visited Jerusalem before.
00:26:05:20 - 00:26:07:24
But I loved hearing from prisoners who were
sons of Jerusalem.
00:26:08:10 - 00:26:11:10
There was a dear friend
of mine who’s in prison still,
00:26:11:18 - 00:26:13:09
called Sanad, I send
him my regards.
00:26:14:05 - 00:26:16:09
I'd tell him: "Come, tell
me about Jerusalem.
"
00:26:16:09 - 00:26:18:11
And he'd describe
the Old City for me.
00:26:18:11 - 00:26:23:13
He described a scene, I think it was Al-Silsila (Chain)
neighbourhood or Gate,
00:26:24:18 - 00:26:27:01
I said: “my character needed
to go up some stairs.
”
00:26:27:01 - 00:26:28:21
He told me: "There are no stairs there.
" I said:
"I'm putting stairs.
"
00:26:29:20 - 00:26:30:17
He said: "Why?"
00:26:30:17 - 00:26:33:22
I said: "There's a difference between walking
through Jerusalem in reality,
00:26:34:01 - 00:26:37:05
and walking through Jerusalem
through a poem written about Jerusalem.
”
00:26:37:21 - 00:26:40:14I was walking through Jerusalem and
imagining it through the poems
00:26:40:14 - 00:26:44:04
the books written about it, through the stories
the young men told.
00:26:44:15 - 00:26:47:17
And I give imagination
unlimited horizons.
00:26:47:17 - 00:26:49:01
My imagination leads me
00:26:49:01 - 00:26:51:12
and takes us wherever
it wants, to the point
00:26:51:12 - 00:26:53:05
that imagination
would seep into dreams.
00:26:53:08 - 00:26:54:16
I used to dream of Jerusalem.
00:26:55:12 - 00:26:58:09
In the scene where I described the Dome
of the Rock,
00:26:59:07 - 00:27:03:15
Al-Silsila neighbourhood beneath the Dome
and Al-Aqsa Mosque
00:27:03:19 - 00:27:07:12
and how I likened it to a woman dressed in
a Palestinian thobe
00:27:08:08 - 00:27:09:10
that's how it was.
00:27:10:07 - 00:27:14:20
But for you to have that cultural reservoir, you
must have read a lot,
00:27:15:02 - 00:27:20:04
which brings me to the question about the cultural
life inside the prison.
00:27:20:15 - 00:27:24:03
You completed a Master's degree in prison
on Israeli Studies,
00:27:25:07 - 00:27:30:11
and you were also talking about the cultural lifeamong you as prisoners.
00:27:30:11 - 00:27:33:23
Tell us more about what were its pillars,
what do you remember?
00:27:34:10 - 00:27:38:10
And did you consider yourselves
intellectuals who entered prison,
00:27:38:10 - 00:27:39:18
or did you become
intellectuals in prison?
00:27:40:22 - 00:27:45:02
There's an educated elite in prison there’s a rich
cultural, organisational,
00:27:45:02 - 00:27:48:11
and academic life inside
prison before October 7th.
00:27:49:02 - 00:27:51:16
After October 7th,
everything collapsed.
00:27:51:21 - 00:27:56:16
There was a true collapse because of
the ferocious assault launched by
00:27:56:16 - 00:27:58:21
the fascist settler Ben Gvir
against the prisoners,
00:27:59:03 - 00:28:01:07
linking us to the ongoing
genocide against our people.
00:28:01:10 - 00:28:04:01
So there was a cultural genocide
in every sense of the word.
00:28:04:18 - 00:28:06:16
That was manifested in the
destruction of libraries,
00:28:06:16 - 00:28:09:16
the confiscation of notebooks,
pens, and books, nothing remained.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:16:18
But before October 7th, we had a structured cultural life within organised frameworks.00:28:17:20 - 00:28:20:20
Within specific programs,
culturally, for example,
00:28:20:24 - 00:28:25:19
we had daily sessions, lectures,
cultural talks twice or once a day,
00:28:26:02 - 00:28:31:03
covering many subjects: philosophy,
thought, national education,
00:28:31:03 - 00:28:34:02
revolutionary conduct,
structured programs.
00:28:34:02 - 00:28:37:21
We also ran training courses to graduate
cadres for the prisoner movement.
00:28:37:22 - 00:28:41:03
I supervised many courses, and I
contributed significantly in that area,
00:28:41:15 - 00:28:43:22
in addition to academic life.
00:28:44:05 - 00:28:47:05
There was a big transformation in prisons
after 2012,
00:28:47:08 - 00:28:49:14
in the quality of our academic lives.
00:28:49:14 - 00:28:54:09
We succeeded in integrating
university frameworks from
00:28:54:09 - 00:28:56:19
universities in the homeland,
specifically Al-Quds Abu Dis University,
00:28:56:19 - 00:28:59:13
Al-Quds Open University, and
Al-Aqsa University in Gaza.
00:29:00:05 - 00:29:03:19
And our brother Marwan Barghouti, Abu Al-Qassam,
who is still in prison,
00:29:03:19 - 00:29:10:06
I send him a great salute, he
is the pioneer in this field.00:29:10:13 - 00:29:11:22
He was the one who brought
Al-Quds University in,
00:29:12:08 - 00:29:16:17
and the educational group of
Al-Quds University in Hadarim Prison
00:29:16:17 - 00:29:18:20
We called it the
"The Knowledge Liberation Circle.
"
00:29:19:13 - 00:29:25:15
We would sit for four hours, from 11 AM to 3:15
PM. in the exercise yard
00:29:25:19 - 00:29:30:04
Every single day, whether it’s raining, hot,
cold, summer.
00:29:30:20 - 00:29:32:19
And we’d study seriously.
00:29:32:19 - 00:29:36:09
Sometimes university professors are arrested
and brought to our prison
00:29:36:09 - 00:29:40:08
and they were astonished by the level and quality
of education there.
00:29:40:19 - 00:29:43:08
Everything we had was
new, all new subjects.
00:29:44:23 - 00:29:50:14
I earned a Master's degree in Israeli Studies and
became fluent in Hebrew.
00:29:50:14 - 00:29:54:08
Why? Because we want to not only learn
about the Zionists in Arabic
00:29:54:16 - 00:29:56:05
but also in Hebrew.
00:29:56:11 - 00:29:57:23
We have to understand
their language.
00:29:57:23 - 00:30:00:01
Hebrew here becomesa spoil of war
00:30:00:11 - 00:30:03:05
we took it as a spoil of war through
understanding the enemy.
00:30:03:22 - 00:30:06:15
And this contributed greatly and made
things much easier
00:30:06:15 - 00:30:08:16
when writing the
novel in general,
00:30:08:16 - 00:30:10:16
and it helped understand
00:30:10:16 - 00:30:14:01
the hidden content of the
Zionist ideological framework.
00:30:14:18 - 00:30:19:02
We ultimately learnt that it’s a fascist
and racist body of
00:30:19:02 - 00:30:20:09
knowledge that does
not allow for sharing.
00:30:20:23 - 00:30:25:23
There was cultural and organisational life in addition
to imprisoned writers.
00:30:26:15 - 00:30:31:06
There were prisoners who wrote, and we'd
sit and discuss together
00:30:31:16 - 00:30:34:16
someone might bring
a manuscript, I'd read it,
00:30:34:16 - 00:30:37:20
if someone asked
for my advice
00:30:37:20 - 00:30:40:11
or help with publishing,
we'd help each other.
00:30:40:22 - 00:30:43:22
We were happy for each other,
we'd celebrate whenever a prisoner00:30:44:02 - 00:30:47:07
released a novel, a book,
or a poetry collection.
00:30:47:15 - 00:30:51:07
We'd distribute sweets in prison because he managed
to liberate his text.
00:30:51:13 - 00:30:56:07
Tell us how you found out
you'd won the 2024 prize.
00:30:56:12 - 00:30:59:12
When I tell you how I found out, I still feel the
blows in my body
00:30:59:12 - 00:31:02:03
from the beatings I took.
00:31:04:01 - 00:31:07:09
because 2024 was the height of the
genocide against our people,
00:31:07:23 - 00:31:10:02
and as prisoners we were also
experiencing that genocide at its peak.
00:31:10:13 - 00:31:15:07
My suffering began when I found out I had made
it to the short list.
00:31:15:21 - 00:31:18:12
The Booker prize had many stages, there’s the long
list then short list...
00:31:18:12 - 00:31:19:23
We were so happy for you outside
00:31:19:23 - 00:31:22:23
Yes, while I’m taking beatings for it.
00:31:24:00 - 00:31:26:01
When the shortlisting began,
00:31:26:14 - 00:31:27:22
that’s when the suffering started.
00:31:27:22 - 00:31:32:09
They came and took me from the cell and put
me in solitary confinement
00:31:33:11 - 00:31:38:14
for about 48 hours in severecold, sitting only on cold metal.
00:31:38:24 - 00:31:39:24
I didn’t know what was happening...
00:31:40:05 - 00:31:41:21
You didn’t understood it’s
because of the short list?
00:31:41:21 - 00:31:42:16
I didn’t understand.
00:31:42:22 - 00:31:44:00
This was during the short listing.
00:31:44:11 - 00:31:51:24
But after that, when I won the prize, I found out in
early May, 2024.
00:31:51:24 - 00:31:55:08
Again, they stormed my cell
and took me in for interrogation.
00:31:55:22 - 00:31:57:15
How did you find out? Did
someone from outside tell you?
00:31:57:15 - 00:31:59:22
No, when they took
me for interrogation,
00:31:59:22 - 00:32:02:16
three Shabak officers were
there, the Zionist security service,
00:32:02:16 - 00:32:05:00
which technically doesn’t have authority to
interrogate prisoners
00:32:05:00 - 00:32:07:11
that’s the job of the
prison authority officers.
00:32:08:02 - 00:32:10:05
Three officers sat with me,
00:32:10:07 - 00:32:11:23
I remember I was
handcuffed behind my back.
00:32:12:02 - 00:32:15:21
Before that, duringtransport between prisons,
00:32:16:04 - 00:32:17:05
they smashed my glasses.
00:32:17:09 - 00:32:19:10
An officer grabbed them off my face
and broke them.
00:32:19:15 - 00:32:22:09
I told him in Hebrew:
"I can’t see now.
”
00:32:22:10 - 00:32:23:19
He said: “I don’t want
you to see anything,
00:32:24:10 - 00:32:26:13
I only want you
to see darkness.
"
00:32:27:15 - 00:32:29:03
Fascists par excellence
00:32:29:06 - 00:32:31:08
So when the prize story happened.
00:32:32:22 - 00:32:35:01
I remember one of
the officers telling me:
00:32:35:01 - 00:32:37:16
"You're causing quite
a stir out there.
00:32:38:05 - 00:32:39:20
The whole world is
talking about you.
00:32:39:20 - 00:32:42:10
How did you do this?
How do you even manage to write?
00:32:42:10 - 00:32:44:03
How do you take your
books out of prison?"
00:32:44:08 - 00:32:47:08
And immediately it clicked,
I knew I had won the prize.
00:32:47:19 - 00:32:50:13
The day before, one of the guys in the cell
had said to me:00:32:50:13 - 00:32:52:21
"How would you know
if you won the Booker?"
00:32:53:08 - 00:32:55:12
I told him: "Don't
worry, we'll know.
"
00:32:55:15 - 00:32:57:11
And by God, it’s like
they heard me.
00:32:58:09 - 00:32:59:08
The next day they
came for me.
00:33:00:00 - 00:33:01:23
And when they took
me for interrogation,
00:33:02:12 - 00:33:06:13
I realised how vital it is for a Palestinian to control
his narrative.
00:33:06:16 - 00:33:11:23
You can't imagine, that Zionist officer was upset,
pressured, and tense,
00:33:11:23 - 00:33:15:21
threatening and warning:
"We're going to deal with you.
"
00:33:16:16 - 00:33:17:22
So what did I say to
him? I told him:
00:33:17:22 - 00:33:20:00
"Had I known my words
would bother you this much,
00:33:20:00 - 00:33:20:24
I would have written a lot more.
"
00:33:21:09 - 00:33:26:02
I knew I'd probably be hit for this, so let me go all
the way, I thought.
00:33:26:06 - 00:33:28:11
Let me say what
I want to say.
00:33:28:11 - 00:33:29:11You’re getting a beating either way.
00:33:29:11 - 00:33:32:07
And I provoked him further,
00:33:32:07 - 00:33:35:16
I'd give him a free
signed copy of the novel.
00:33:37:04 - 00:33:41:00
I paid a heavy price for that story. They took me
back to the cell.
00:33:41:23 - 00:33:44:23
I think that same night or the next day, they
stormed in and beat me,
00:33:45:04 - 00:33:46:19
they'd come back intermittently.
00:33:47:09 - 00:33:49:19
Yes, and after that
I found out officially.
00:33:49:23 - 00:33:53:17
In the wing I was in, there was a small radio the
guys had smuggled in.
00:33:54:07 - 00:33:56:07
The guys secretly sent word to me:
00:33:56:07 - 00:33:58:02
"Congratulations, you've
won the Booker Prize.
"
00:33:59:00 - 00:34:00:22
Honestly, I'll tell you,
in that moment,
00:34:02:00 - 00:34:04:07
I didn't fully grasp how
significant this prize is.
00:34:04:10 - 00:34:09:10
I knew about the Booker,
and that it's a very important prize,
00:34:09:12 - 00:34:11:13
but there was no joy.
00:34:11:22 - 00:34:13:10
Why? Because our people are being
subjected to genocide,00:34:13:22 - 00:34:17:23
and my priorities were survival and staying
alive in prison.
00:34:18:12 - 00:34:21:12
And yet, the guys
celebrated me.
00:34:22:09 - 00:34:23:13
You know what they did?
00:34:23:13 - 00:34:26:04
They deprived themselves
of their spoonful of jam,
00:34:26:10 - 00:34:28:20
we each get one small
spoonful of jam a day.
00:34:29:07 - 00:34:32:12
The guys in my room collected 7 to 8
spoonfuls of jam.
00:34:33:03 - 00:34:36:03
They spread them
on two slices of bread,
00:34:36:10 - 00:34:39:23
stale bread, because the
Zionists only gave us stale bread.
00:34:40:11 - 00:34:42:00
They said: "We want
to celebrate with you.
"
00:34:43:07 - 00:34:47:24
And they each said a few words, quietly so the
warden wouldn't hear.
00:34:47:24 - 00:34:50:02
The men in that
cell were, somehow,
00:34:50:05 - 00:34:51:23
a cross-section of
all of historic Palestine.
00:34:52:20 - 00:34:57:13
There were people from Gaza,
the Galilee, Jerusalem, Ramallah,
00:34:57:13 - 00:35:01:11
from Nablus, from every corner of thePalestinian geography.
00:35:01:20 - 00:35:03:24
That moved me deeply,
00:35:03:24 - 00:35:06:10
despite the beatings
from the Zionists,
00:35:06:10 - 00:35:08:24
despite how much they wanting to hurt me,
here we are steadfast.
00:35:09:08 - 00:35:13:14
When a prisoner denies himself a small
spoonful of strawberry jam
00:35:13:14 - 00:35:16:19
tasteless, meaningless, but it matters to him
because it keeps him alive,
00:35:17:05 - 00:35:20:05
and he comes and gives it to me like a gift: "We
want to celebrate.
"
00:35:20:12 - 00:35:24:21
This confirms how much we Palestinians as
fighters and as a people
00:35:25:10 - 00:35:28:10
not only deserve to live,
forget that phrase,
00:35:28:10 - 00:35:30:15
that “On this land what
deserve to live”
00:35:30:15 - 00:35:33:15
Because some people who stole it, and
understood it differently.
00:35:34:07 - 00:35:37:07
We sacrifice our lives so we can live, that’s
the difference.
00:35:37:16 - 00:35:40:02
The Palestinian who gives years of his
life in prison,
00:35:40:07 - 00:35:43:07
pay an enormous price,
all for his people.
00:35:43:11 - 00:35:45:14When I was released, I said:
00:35:45:14 - 00:35:50:16
21 years in prison, is not worth one drop of
blood in Gaza.
00:35:51:10 - 00:35:54:10
My whole life as Bassem
is worth nothing
00:35:55:02 - 00:35:57:07
compared to all the
destruction in Gaza,
00:35:57:11 - 00:36:00:11
Entire families gone, entire
households wiped out.
00:36:01:09 - 00:36:05:07
But in the end, there is joy, and this is a
resistance joy,
00:36:05:19 - 00:36:08:14
a fullness of a certain
kind of happiness.
00:36:08:14 - 00:36:11:22
These small details
that we try to live by.
00:36:12:00 - 00:36:13:14
That's the reason we endure.
00:36:13:15 - 00:36:15:07
Exactly, 100%.
00:36:15:13 - 00:36:17:14 Did
you ever think
you would be released?
00:36:17:14 - 00:36:20:14 given
that you had three life sentences,
300 years?
00:36:20:22 - 00:36:21:15 Yeah,
300 years.
00:36:22:08 - 00:36:25:21 Did you dream
of freedom? Did you even see it as
possible?
00:36:26:01 - 00:36:31:05 Absolutely, from
the beginning. From the moment of my
arrest,00:36:31:10 - 00:36:37:15 during my time
in interrogation cells with the Zionist
Shabak
00:36:38:12 - 00:36:40:08 I set
my mind that I
would be in for 20 years.
00:36:41:13 - 00:36:44:23 From
day one. From the
first day they arrested me,
00:36:44:23 - 00:36:46:10 I told myself:
"I'll spend at least 20 years in prison.
"
00:36:47:10 - 00:36:48:15 You
had the feeling?
00:36:48:19 - 00:36:50:15 Yeah, at the
least. Everyone knows what they’ve
done,
00:36:51:07 - 00:36:53:03 and
understand the
system in place...
00:36:53:03 - 00:36:55:02 At least,
not that you’ll only spend 20
years...
00:36:55:02 - 00:36:57:08
I said: "At least 20
years in prison.
"
00:36:57:24 - 00:37:00:09
When I entered the prison,
00:37:00:09 - 00:37:03:22
the guys said “There are
deals, prisoner exchanges, etc...
”
00:37:04:19 - 00:37:05:23
It was difficult
for my family.
00:37:06:03 - 00:37:09:20
The life-sentenced prisoner coming out on family
visits before October 7th
00:37:10:15 - 00:37:12:20
wasn't easy, especially for a life
sentenced prisoner.00:37:12:20 - 00:37:16:00
You can tell someone is a life sentences
prisoners on family visits
00:37:16:06 - 00:37:18:11
when you see their family
cry every single time.
00:37:18:11 - 00:37:21:06
For 20 years in prison,
every single visit,
00:37:21:14 - 00:37:25:16
my family would come in
and everyone would cry.
00:37:26:03 - 00:37:29:05
And I thought: how can I tell them, I expect to be
here 20 years?
00:37:29:16 - 00:37:32:04
I kept reassuring
them year by year,
00:37:32:04 - 00:37:36:07
Not this year mom, but maybe next year. It
was the same with my dad.
00:37:36:14 - 00:37:38:01
But once I shocked my father, may he
rest in peace,
00:37:38:06 - 00:37:40:15
I told him: "I'm going to
spend 20 years in prison.
"
00:37:41:00 - 00:37:42:22
He started screaming
during the visit.
00:37:43:10 - 00:37:46:10
"Don't say that, you're destroying me when
you say that.
"
00:37:48:04 - 00:37:50:11
He passed away
before I was released.
00:37:51:05 - 00:37:53:00
My father died in 2016.
00:37:53:00 - 00:37:53:16
May he rest in peace.00:37:53:19 - 00:37:57:04
But hope from the beginning has to be
one's loyal companion.
00:37:57:23 - 00:38:01:08
There was no other option for me and for all
the life-sentenced,
00:38:01:08 - 00:38:02:17
especially those
with long sentences,
00:38:03:02 - 00:38:04:23
there was great hope
that we would be released.
00:38:05:20 - 00:38:07:13
It's a mathematical certainty.
00:38:07:19 - 00:38:10:12
Even the guys who we
left that are still inside
00:38:10:12 - 00:38:13:03
some are life sentenced
with incredibly hard lives.
00:38:13:13 - 00:38:15:18
And as I speak with you now, I know what
they're going through
00:38:15:18 - 00:38:17:09
because I still live in their time.
00:38:17:13 - 00:38:21:06
I know they're cold, they're hungry, what they're
thinking about,
00:38:21:06 - 00:38:26:13
what food will come
tomorrow, things are not easy.
00:38:27:02 - 00:38:30:09
We cling to hope until
the moment we hate it,
00:38:30:10 - 00:38:33:03
telling it: "Enough,
don't mock me.
"
00:38:33:03 - 00:38:36:03
We talk to hope that way,
sometimes it feels like an illusion.00:38:36:19 - 00:38:39:11
Is it possible to spend
300 years in jail?
00:38:39:14 - 00:38:41:09
Am I really going
to die in prison?
00:38:41:24 - 00:38:44:18
But in the end, here, I was liberated
despite the Zionists.
00:38:44:23 - 00:38:46:18
Through the endurance
and resistance of my people.
00:38:48:01 - 00:38:52:16
From what you're saying, hope and
imagination were perhaps
00:38:53:06 - 00:38:56:00
the two feelings that accompanied you
throughout the entire journey?
00:38:56:00 - 00:38:56:22
They are the secret.
00:38:57:12 - 00:38:58:24
Hope and imagination...
00:38:59:02 - 00:39:00:15
Hope as the will...
00:39:00:24 - 00:39:03:24
Hope is the fuel for the will,
00:39:04:19 - 00:39:06:04
the battery of a
strong will is hope.
00:39:06:18 - 00:39:08:01
Imagination was for writing.
00:39:08:19 - 00:39:16:24
Imagination was for me an unlimited capacity to
soar, to distance oneself.
00:39:17:11 - 00:39:21:12
Cinema also helped. There were
televisions before the war,
00:39:21:19 - 00:39:25:01and cinema was one
of my greatest loves.
00:39:25:11 - 00:39:27:15
We had a channel
that showed films...
00:39:27:15 - 00:39:31:17
It's important I keep noting that all of this was
before the war.
00:39:31:17 - 00:39:33:02
Before October 7th.
00:39:33:02 - 00:39:35:05
Because now,
none of it exists.
00:39:35:05 - 00:39:41:10
The prison cells today are iron tanks, crammed with
bodies, the prisoners.
00:39:42:08 - 00:39:45:08
But before the war, there
was TV, there was radio....
00:39:46:04 - 00:39:50:06
But I assume, imagination
also has a dark side,
00:39:50:12 - 00:39:53:05
where you daydream too much...
00:39:53:05 - 00:39:53:12
You disconnect from reality.
00:39:54:12 - 00:39:58:04
Yes, and inside prison you want to
disconnect from reality,
00:39:58:04 - 00:40:00:03
So, in a way it helps.
00:40:00:03 - 00:40:06:24
But the idea is: when you come back to reality,
now that you're out,
00:40:06:24 - 00:40:10:14
you've returned to reality,
and there's a convergence
00:40:10:14 - 00:40:13:17
between your imagination
and the real world.00:40:13:24 - 00:40:17:21
Was there anything you
had imagined a certain way?
00:40:17:21 - 00:40:21:03
and when you encountered it, it surprised
you? disappointed you?
00:40:21:23 - 00:40:25:03
Or the opposite, something you feared would be
worse but turned out better?
00:40:26:05 - 00:40:27:12
Nothing has turned
out to be better yet.
00:40:28:22 - 00:40:31:04
This is a brilliant
question, actually.
00:40:33:10 - 00:40:35:01
When people ask
me "What is freedom?"
00:40:35:07 - 00:40:37:04
I say: "I don't know.
"
When I was released,
00:40:37:04 - 00:40:38:10
I told them: "I don't
know what freedom is
00:40:38:10 - 00:40:40:16
I'm trying to understand
it through small details.
"
00:40:42:02 - 00:40:46:04
In some places and times, imagination is more
beautiful than reality.
00:40:47:18 - 00:40:49:02
Specifically, when I came here,
00:40:49:02 - 00:40:51:13
in more than one scenario
that I had in mind
00:40:51:13 - 00:40:53:01
there were things
I saw in reality
00:40:53:12 - 00:40:55:23
that weren't what I hadwanted or imagined.
00:40:56:23 - 00:41:01:02
Maybe because I'm a novelist, and this
frightens me,
00:41:01:09 - 00:41:04:07
I'm accustomed to living between
metaphors and analogies,
00:41:04:07 - 00:41:05:24
or escaping from one
metaphor to another.
00:41:06:21 - 00:41:11:02
And I don't know how to do anything other than
write and imagine
00:41:11:05 - 00:41:12:20
that's a problem.
Why is it a problem?
00:41:13:15 - 00:41:18:21
Because I am a man who came out of prison
after more than 21 years
00:41:18:21 - 00:41:20:12
straight into exile.
00:41:21:03 - 00:41:24:10
And after 21 years, the natural thing would
be to go home.
00:41:25:05 - 00:41:27:07
For my mother to hold me,
to hug me, to see my family,
00:41:27:07 - 00:41:29:24
to go to Nablus, to see the world and
the people.
00:41:29:24 - 00:41:32:19
But no, we were taken
straight from the cell to exile.
00:41:33:11 - 00:41:36:07
True, we came to Egypt, and Egypt is
a very warm country,
00:41:36:07 - 00:41:39:06
I consider it
Palestine, in a sense.
00:41:39:06 - 00:41:40:17It is the mother
country, the foundation
00:41:40:17 - 00:41:44:06
but Egypt, in my consciousness, my
upbringing, my culture,
00:41:45:02 - 00:41:46:07
is my second
homeland, in a sense.
00:41:46:23 - 00:41:49:18
We were raised on Egyptian
culture in all its details.
00:41:49:22 - 00:41:53:18
But it is not my homeland. It is not my country. I
don't belong here.
00:41:54:10 - 00:41:58:07
You know Tala, when I came in the Uber, I
think I told you yesterday,
00:41:58:19 - 00:42:01:22
I don't know distances,
I can't measure distances.
00:42:01:22 - 00:42:02:20
I don't understand,
for example,
00:42:02:20 - 00:42:05:01
that to get from my house to
here takes an hour by car.
00:42:06:11 - 00:42:09:20
I don't understand these things, and partly, I don't
even want to understand.
00:42:10:13 - 00:42:12:05
It doesn't matter to
me where I am.
00:42:13:03 - 00:42:14:19
Put me in a room,
give me a bed,
00:42:14:23 - 00:42:17:01
then the view out the
window doesn’t matter.
00:42:17:01 - 00:42:19:00
The room's window mightoverlook Taksim Square in Istanbul,
00:42:19:13 - 00:42:24:22
or a square in Madrid, or Tahrir Square in Cairo,
it doesn't matter.
00:42:25:08 - 00:42:26:08
It doesn't matter to me,
00:42:27:00 - 00:42:28:00
because I am not
here, not at heart.
00:42:28:24 - 00:42:30:10
But what matters to me
greatly, what I dream of,
00:42:30:10 - 00:42:32:11
is that the window of my
room looks out over Jabal Ebal,
00:42:33:09 - 00:42:36:09
or Jabal Gerizim in Nablus,
or Martyrs' roundabout in Nablus,
00:42:36:09 - 00:42:38:03
or Hattin Street
where I grew up.
00:42:38:23 - 00:42:43:00
I'm not diminishing the depth and civilisation of
the countries I'm in
00:42:43:15 - 00:42:47:01
but I say this with full honesty: I don't belong
here.
00:42:47:01 - 00:42:49:15
This is not my place.
And time, it's not mine either.
00:42:49:21 - 00:42:52:02
If it were mine, I'd know
how to reconcile with it,
00:42:52:02 - 00:42:57:12
I would have known that Tala was right,
about me being late.
00:42:57:19 - 00:42:59:05
Even though you arrived late.
00:42:59:22 - 00:43:02:02Don’t expose us, don’t.
00:43:02:10 - 00:43:04:21
You came with your baby.
You and Zeina.
00:43:04:23 - 00:43:06:13
She’s the reason
00:43:06:19 - 00:43:09:06
You’re in your 8th month,
you know when she’s born,
00:43:09:11 - 00:43:13:09
she’s going to know her mom talked to Bassem
about Palestine on the podcast.
00:43:13:21 - 00:43:15:01
She’ll be the most beautiful of the
beautiful.
00:43:15:01 - 00:43:17:18
I’m going to tell her about Palestine from day
one, from now.
00:43:17:21 - 00:43:19:17
God willing, she'll live
better days than ours.
00:43:19:17 - 00:43:22:17
I hope to God.
00:43:23:05 - 00:43:28:09
But truly imagination is often more beautiful than
reality, unfortunately.
00:43:28:09 - 00:43:31:18
And speaking of exile,
I think colonialism,
00:43:31:18 - 00:43:36:01
when it imprisons Palestinians inside
detention or jails them,
00:43:36:01 - 00:43:38:05
is also exiling them
from their homeland
00:43:38:05 - 00:43:39:10
but from within
the homeland itself.
00:43:39:10 - 00:43:43:16
So if you were to compare the exile insidePalestine, in prison,
00:43:43:16 - 00:43:48:07
versus the exile you're in now here in Egypt,
far from Palestine,
00:43:48:07 - 00:43:49:20
how do you see that paradox?
00:43:50:12 - 00:43:55:06
There's an important paradox, and it's also
something remarkable.
00:43:56:18 - 00:44:01:14
Prison, in its details and challenges, is lighter
than exile.
00:44:02:00 - 00:44:03:11
Prison has a clear equation:
00:44:03:18 - 00:44:05:10
Endurance, Will,
Hope, and that's it.
00:44:05:15 - 00:44:08:21
You wake every day, you organise and
engineer yourself based on that.
00:44:09:02 - 00:44:11:15
So the day passes,
so you don’t break,
00:44:11:15 - 00:44:13:01
so the jailer cannot penetrate your
consciousness.
00:44:13:20 - 00:44:15:15
But in exile, things are harder.
00:44:16:03 - 00:44:20:20
Exile is a vast, open space, filled with
possibilities and choices.
00:44:22:08 - 00:44:25:19
And being in the field of writing,
00:44:26:10 - 00:44:29:05
at one point I thought the
world of literature and culture
00:44:29:05 - 00:44:31:00
I was heading into
would be a beautiful world.00:44:32:03 - 00:44:36:14
The biggest shock after my release was what I
saw from a distance
00:44:36:14 - 00:44:39:14
at the world of literature
and culture, not all of it,
00:44:40:09 - 00:44:42:08
but a large part of it,
is very difficult.
00:44:42:22 - 00:44:45:07
It's a huge minefield.
00:44:46:01 - 00:44:48:13
There are conflicting
and contradictory currents.
00:44:48:13 - 00:44:51:05
You feel that someone doesn't genuinely
wish well for another.
00:44:51:16 - 00:44:54:04
And when you want to say a
word, you have to be careful,
00:44:54:04 - 00:44:55:05
you have to understand
what you're saying.
00:44:55:24 - 00:44:57:24
I was shocked by this reality. 00:44:58:15
- 00:45:01:06
I had thought the world
of literature and culture
00:45:02:07 - 00:45:06:03
is what produces values and ethics what
shapes people's consciousness.
00:45:06:21 - 00:45:09:09
But a large part of them
turned out to be exhausted,
00:45:09:13 - 00:45:11:03
the situation is difficult.
00:45:11:03 - 00:45:13:02
I don't want to say more.00:45:13:17 - 00:45:15:17
Let's leave it there.
00:45:16:03 - 00:45:19:14
But this surely also
reflects on your writing
00:45:19:16 - 00:45:25:20
you mentioned before that writing under
threat and pursuit gives
00:45:25:20 - 00:45:29:06
words a certain weight.
00:45:29:06 - 00:45:33:05
Now that danger doesn't exist there are other kinds
of risks and challenges,
00:45:33:05 - 00:45:34:12
but not that particular
kind of threat.
00:45:34:22 - 00:45:37:14
So what happened to your
writing after your release?
00:45:38:12 - 00:45:40:10
I don't know how to write
because there's no threat.
00:45:41:07 - 00:45:42:10
So you haven’t
been able to write?
00:45:42:10 - 00:45:45:10
Until now, no. But I
am preparing myself.
00:45:46:03 - 00:45:48:20
In prison, there were
incentives to write:
00:45:49:01 - 00:45:52:15
challenge, resistance,
steadfastness, freedom, all of those.
00:45:52:21 - 00:45:54:01
In exile, there are
also incentives.
00:45:54:02 - 00:45:57:19
Exile is a prison in its own way another
form of imprisonment.00:45:58:07 - 00:45:59:09
I want to defeat it.
00:45:59:23 - 00:46:02:23
I’m now defeating it through a range of
activities,
00:46:03:07 - 00:46:06:17
literary and cultural events, seminars,
exhibitions, workshops,
00:46:07:05 - 00:46:08:19
or writing articles, for example.
00:46:09:18 - 00:46:13:07
But narrative writing itself,
that’s a longer process.
00:46:13:12 - 00:46:14:04
Why?
00:46:14:14 - 00:46:16:21
I want to find the right combination
00:46:17:06 - 00:46:19:24
and find the motivations
that protect me from exile
00:46:19:24 - 00:46:21:16
when I write about it
and write within it.
00:46:24:02 - 00:46:25:13
That will happen soon.
00:46:25:17 - 00:46:29:14
And the first novel I'll write will
be about my friend Walid Daqqa.
00:46:30:05 - 00:46:33:00
And I've been writing it in my mind, six months
before my release,
00:46:33:00 - 00:46:34:09
because there were no pencils or
notebooks to write with,
00:46:34:22 - 00:46:37:22
Its outlines are almost
fully formed in my mind.
00:46:38:08 - 00:46:40:17But I won't write it while
I don't understand exile,
00:46:40:23 - 00:46:43:13
I won't write it while
I'm unable to defeat exile
00:46:43:13 - 00:46:44:18
the way I defeated detention.
00:46:45:13 - 00:46:47:12
Exile, in it’s essence...
00:46:47:21 - 00:46:50:14
It’s just as Mahmoud Darwish said: “Who am I
without exile?”
00:46:51:20 - 00:46:53:16
Mahmoud Darwish couldn't
write in Ramallah.
00:46:54:17 - 00:46:59:18
He'd leave Ramallah and go to Paris or
elsewhere, just to write
00:46:59:18 - 00:47:00:19
about his homeland
from a distance.
00:47:00:19 - 00:47:04:06
Perhaps we are governed by this
condition, not knowing how to
00:47:04:06 - 00:47:08:05
write about our homelands
unless we’re exiled from them.
00:47:08:17 - 00:47:12:14
Palestine is more beautiful
when you imagine it.
00:47:12:23 - 00:47:20:03
It becomes a complete woman in all her struggles,
sacrifices, and heroism.
00:47:21:06 - 00:47:25:14
Let's keep seeing her from afar writing and
painting about her.
00:47:27:02 - 00:47:32:03
We're really looking forward to the novel
about Walid Daqqa.00:47:32:11 - 00:47:35:18
Maybe you need to find your
new ritual to be able to write.
00:47:36:01 - 00:47:39:03
Maybe I’ll get an iron bed
like the one we had...
00:47:39:03 - 00:47:41:02
Of course, I would
never actually do that.
00:47:41:02 - 00:47:45:05
Yes, I need rituals. I need
incentives more than rituals,
00:47:45:21 - 00:47:49:16
to remove the fear in my
relationship with exile, that's a must.
00:47:50:09 - 00:47:55:00
Bassem, regardless of being in exile, we've spoken
about more than one kind.
00:47:55:00 - 00:48:00:19
You have a literary and cultural project for
your writing,
00:48:00:19 - 00:48:05:07
which is writing
anti-colonial literature.
00:48:05:12 - 00:48:07:10
Tell us more about what
you mean by this?
00:48:08:04 - 00:48:14:02
There's a concept I'm developing with a
group of intellectuals
00:48:14:09 - 00:48:15:15
called:
"Engagement Literature.
"
00:48:16:11 - 00:48:20:08
And the Engagement Literature
began forming as a concept while I was in prison,
00:48:20:08 - 00:48:21:16
specifically during the
period of the genocide,
00:48:22:07 - 00:48:24:16that’s when I began to
reflect on it deeply.
00:48:25:23 - 00:48:28:01
It is fundamentally
built on the question:
00:48:28:01 - 00:48:32:20
how do we write and produce anti-colonial literature from
within a colonial context?
00:48:33:17 - 00:48:35:11
What do I mean by
the colonial context?
00:48:36:01 - 00:48:39:08
We Palestinians are distorted beings
born from the womb of the Nakba.
00:48:39:15 - 00:48:41:08
And this is a colonial Nakba,
00:48:41:08 - 00:48:42:16
it’s not a
Palestinian Nakba,
00:48:42:16 - 00:48:45:02
it was caused by the
Zionist movement
00:48:45:09 - 00:48:48:08
following a specific equation:
one plus one equals two.
00:48:48:23 - 00:48:50:16
What does this mean?
00:48:51:14 - 00:48:58:03
Tala fits into number two but
Bassem with one plus one makes three,
00:48:58:05 - 00:48:59:23
so they will remove
him, take him away.
00:49:00:13 - 00:49:02:03
The Zionists carried
out the Nakba,
00:49:02:04 - 00:49:05:14
and this Nakba produced
a set of distorted beings:
00:49:06:16 - 00:49:10:00the refugee, the
martyr, the prisoner,
00:49:10:00 - 00:49:12:05
the displaced, the
hunted, the wounded.
00:49:12:12 - 00:49:16:14
It also created distorted time and
geographies:
00:49:16:23 - 00:49:21:01
the time of the camp, the time of the city,
all of it distorted.
00:49:22:08 - 00:49:25:01
This is the colonial context of the
Zionist movement.
00:49:25:01 - 00:49:26:10
What does this demand?
00:49:26:10 - 00:49:30:16
It demands not only
resistance in its highest form
00:49:30:16 - 00:49:32:09
which is armed or
combat resistance
00:49:32:09 - 00:49:34:04
but also cultural
and literary resistance.
00:49:34:13 - 00:49:37:24
And Ghassan Kanafani was perhaps the first
intellectual and writer
00:49:37:24 - 00:49:39:19
to address resistance literature,
00:49:40:04 - 00:49:43:11
and to also address the Zionist in his novel
"Returning to Haifa.
"
00:49:44:08 - 00:49:47:04
The first novelist to introduce the Zionist
character
00:49:47:04 - 00:49:49:03
into a narrative text
was Ghassan Kanafani,
00:49:49:15 - 00:49:52:15when he gave voice to
that figure in the text.
00:49:53:04 - 00:49:55:12
At that time,
Kanafani faced criticism
00:49:56:02 - 00:49:59:17
there were some critics
who misread the story.
00:50:00:05 - 00:50:02:12
They said it might constitute
normalization to add a Zionist character...
00:50:02:12 - 00:50:03:21
Why are you giving
him primary space?
00:50:03:21 - 00:50:04:19
Yes, because you must.
00:50:04:20 - 00:50:05:20
Because how will
we defeat him?
00:50:06:04 - 00:50:07:17
This is where Engagement
Literature becomes clear
00:50:07:17 - 00:50:11:16
it becomes clear when we as
Palestinians and Arabs enter
00:50:12:03 - 00:50:15:16
the depths of Zionist knowledge
in order to confront it,
00:50:15:21 - 00:50:17:18
and to liberate ourselves
from it at the same time.
00:50:18:01 - 00:50:20:09
We enter its hidden
and secret contents
00:50:20:17 - 00:50:23:17
trying to understand it
one way or another.
00:50:24:13 - 00:50:25:18
In their language, too.
00:50:25:22 - 00:50:28:17Today, Palestinians need to
understand that language.
00:50:28:17 - 00:50:30:19
There are many Palestinians
who are fluent in Hebrew,
00:50:31:04 - 00:50:33:01
but when I master Hebrew
as a mode of consciousness
00:50:33:01 - 00:50:35:24
and a mode of thinking, that's when I succeed in
penetrating the Zionist's
00:50:35:24 - 00:50:37:04
own stream of consciousness.
00:50:38:06 - 00:50:40:12
Engagement Literature also
transforms the Palestinian
00:50:40:12 - 00:50:41:15
from the individual to collective
00:50:41:24 - 00:50:43:09
and moves them to the universal.
00:50:43:09 - 00:50:46:05
and by universal, I mean moving away from
sectarianism and racism.
00:50:46:10 - 00:50:48:16
We Palestinians are
not inherently racist
00:50:48:16 - 00:50:50:01
because we have been
subjected to racism.
00:50:50:10 - 00:50:54:14
And therefore the universal requires an open
identity, not a closed one.
00:50:54:23 - 00:50:59:20
The Palestinian today is
still forming his identity
00:50:59:20 - 00:51:03:05
because identity is a process,
and when it presents
00:51:03:05 - 00:51:06:05ready-made answers, it becomes
a fascist and racist identity.
00:51:07:01 - 00:51:08:06
So the identity must remain open.
00:51:08:11 - 00:51:12:16
In Engagement Literature,
feminism also becomes central.
00:51:12:23 - 00:51:15:09
Palestine by nature is
feminine, a woman.
00:51:16:10 - 00:51:20:07
And as a writer, I have never
written a text that was not feminine,
00:51:20:21 - 00:51:22:13
a text that carries
a feminine spirit,
00:51:22:13 - 00:51:27:21
Palestine’s spirit, in all her beautiful, sorrowful, and
joyful manifestations.
00:51:29:12 - 00:51:32:15
Engagement Literature emphasises
feminism not just as a slogan
00:51:32:15 - 00:51:34:13
and not as treating the woman
as a secondary contradiction
00:51:34:13 - 00:51:37:13
to be subordinated to the primary
contradiction with colonialism,
00:51:38:01 - 00:51:40:24
like the decorative role given to women by
Palestinian factions
00:51:40:24 - 00:51:42:20
the woman as an
essential partner. No.
00:51:43:05 - 00:51:47:11
The Palestinian woman has been treated as a logo, or fixed frame of
00:51:47:11 - 00:51:48:21
the mother of the martyr,
the mother of the prisoner.
00:51:49:02 - 00:51:50:08But we never truly engaged with her.
00:51:50:08 - 00:51:52:18
She is a woman before she is the
mother of a martyr or a prisoner
00:51:53:00 - 00:51:55:18
or a fighter or a wounded
man or the wife of a fighter.
00:51:55:24 - 00:51:57:19
Another critical thing
in Engagement Literature
00:51:57:19 - 00:51:59:24
and I always clarify
this very carefully
00:52:00:09 - 00:52:02:06
the humanization of
the Zionist Other.
00:52:03:03 - 00:52:04:15
What is meant
by humanisation?
00:52:05:10 - 00:52:07:00
It does not
mean normalisation,
00:52:07:05 - 00:52:09:06
nor proving that he’s human.
00:52:09:18 - 00:52:11:17
No human kills an entire family.
00:52:12:08 - 00:52:16:05
What is meant by humanisation is that
the Zionist always treated himself...
00:52:16:05 - 00:52:20:01
The Zionist movement has always
treated the Zionist as a superhuman,
00:52:20:18 - 00:52:23:09
a miraculous being
beyond ordinary reality.
00:52:23:13 - 00:52:25:07
What is meant by
beyond ordinary reality?
00:52:25:18 - 00:52:30:12He’s elevated above it, becoming more than a
human, a kind of deity.
00:52:30:15 - 00:52:32:00
I want to bring him back
down to the human level.
00:52:32:00 - 00:52:32:15
That’s humanisation.
00:52:33:03 - 00:52:34:24
We want to bring him to a
human level to understand him,
00:52:35:13 - 00:52:36:13
so we can defeat him.
00:52:36:13 - 00:52:38:08
As long as he remains elevated above
us, I cannot defeat him.
00:52:38:11 - 00:52:42:16
And of course you intended to do this
explicitly and directly in
00:52:43:01 - 00:52:45:07
"A Mask the Color of the Sky" art one
and two.
00:52:45:08 - 00:52:46:20
Yes, with part two
going even further.
00:52:47:02 - 00:52:51:19
Tell us about both books for those listening
who haven't read them.
00:52:51:21 - 00:52:55:21
Tell us without
spoiling the story.
00:52:55:21 - 00:52:58:21
I can’t spoil part three,
but part two is fine.
00:52:59:10 - 00:53:04:00
In "A Mask the Color of the Sky" the story
is clear.
00:53:04:00 - 00:53:07:07
About how Nour Al-Shahdi
impersonates the identity of a Zionist,00:53:07:07 - 00:53:09:09
named Or Shapira, taking
on his personal identity.
00:53:09:24 - 00:53:13:16
And then Nour discovers he
must discard the Zionist mask
00:53:13:16 - 00:53:15:13
in order to search for
identity as a Palestinian.
00:53:15:19 - 00:53:19:00
And there are invisible dialogues between
him and Or Shapira,
00:53:19:00 - 00:53:20:01
without them ever
actually meeting.
00:53:20:07 - 00:53:22:23
I remember in one
of the dialogues
00:53:23:01 - 00:53:26:01
Nour stands in front of a mirror and imagines
talking to Ur:
00:53:26:15 - 00:53:31:04
"Ur, you need to look at yourself in the mirror, and
you'll see me in it.
"
00:53:31:16 - 00:53:34:17
And Or replies: "If I want to see you in the mirror, that
means I disappear.
"
00:53:36:00 - 00:53:37:16
Meaning: you become
human as a Palestinian.
00:53:37:21 - 00:53:39:01
That’s why we speak.
00:53:39:05 - 00:53:43:02
Every time I deconstruct the
brutality and racism of this Zionist
00:53:43:02 - 00:53:46:16
colonial, I am reclaiming my humanity.
00:53:47:01 - 00:53:49:13
In part two, the battleand story changes.
00:53:50:07 - 00:53:54:00
The protagonist becomes
a singular Zionist figure.
00:53:54:07 - 00:53:57:24
I write about a young
Zionist in his prime,
00:53:58:19 - 00:54:02:11
suffering from
post-traumatic stress disorder.
00:54:03:06 - 00:54:06:19
He’s a former officer
in the paratroopers,
00:54:06:19 - 00:54:09:03
one of the elite units
of the Zionist army,
00:54:09:20 - 00:54:11:16
living in isolation, cut
off from the world.
00:54:12:09 - 00:54:15:13
He discovers by chance that a Palestinian had
stolen his identity.
00:54:16:12 - 00:54:19:05
This is where I enter
the hidden worlds
00:54:19:05 - 00:54:21:08
of Zionist consciousness
through Or Shapira.
00:54:22:01 - 00:54:26:16
I infiltrate the depths of that consciousness, not
to play with it,
00:54:26:18 - 00:54:31:07
I want to expose it and present it to the
Arab, Palestinian,
00:54:31:07 - 00:54:34:05
and international reader, like "Here you go, see
what's happening.
"
00:54:34:13 - 00:54:39:12
But you go so deep into the
psychology of the Jew and coloniser00:54:40:04 - 00:54:46:04
and this made me want to know: how did you
actually reach that level?
00:54:46:04 - 00:54:48:08
To know what he’s thinking.
00:54:48:09 - 00:54:49:02
There’s many...
00:54:49:02 - 00:54:53:04
To know how he thinks about other things, you
need to read, to learn.
00:54:53:16 - 00:54:54:15
So what were your tools?
00:54:54:15 - 00:54:59:20
What led to Part Two beyond
the database I collected,
00:55:00:04 - 00:55:02:21
is that I did my Master’s
degree in Israeli Studies
00:55:03:06 - 00:55:08:03
I'm fluent in Hebrew, and more
importantly: I exposed myself
00:55:08:23 - 00:55:12:04
to the entire
Zionist media apparatus.
00:55:12:05 - 00:55:15:18
Inside prison, I used to listen to Hebrew
radio everything,
00:55:15:18 - 00:55:19:18
even the commercials, I’d
listen to them in Hebrew.
00:55:20:11 - 00:55:23:11
I read Hebrew newspapers,
magazines, books.
00:55:23:19 - 00:55:28:03
I watched in Hebrew for about a year, just to
create Or Shapira,
00:55:28:08 - 00:55:29:18
the protagonist in part two.00:55:29:24 - 00:55:32:05
And to detach myself
from him as a Palestinian.
00:55:32:10 - 00:55:34:22
Because if I intervened
as a Palestinian,
00:55:34:22 - 00:55:37:01
he might end up shouting "Allahu Akbar" at
the end of the novel.
00:55:37:01 - 00:55:40:12
I don’t want him to say that, or to say
“Long live Palestine”
.
00:55:40:12 - 00:55:42:02
This is how you create
empathy between each other,
00:55:42:02 - 00:55:44:03
then he has no value.
00:55:44:24 - 00:55:46:18
This was an exhausting process,
00:55:47:00 - 00:55:51:11
being a writer, a resister, a prisoner,
pursued by the jailer,
00:55:51:11 - 00:55:53:20
while simultaneously,
internally, speaking Hebrew.
00:55:54:05 - 00:55:57:16
What happened is thatI was thinking in Hebrew
but writing in Arabic.
00:55:58:10 - 00:56:01:14
That's the crucial distinction. And I was
confident in myself,
00:56:01:17 - 00:56:04:22
confident in my identity as an intellectual and
fighter, I was safe.
00:56:05:03 - 00:56:07:00
It would be difficult for this
knowledge to affect me.
00:56:08:05 - 00:56:11:05
I also consultedpsychology books,
00:56:11:19 - 00:56:13:16
to understand
post-traumatic stress
00:56:13:16 - 00:56:16:07
and the possibility that it could lead
to schizophrenia.
00:56:17:05 - 00:56:18:24
I wanted the character
to reach that stage.
00:56:18:24 - 00:56:21:24
And of course, the intended meaning
of schizophrenia
00:56:22:14 - 00:56:24:11
is not just that a person
develops schizophrenia
00:56:24:11 - 00:56:28:02
schizophrenia exists in every aspect of
Zionist consciousness.
00:56:28:10 - 00:56:30:06
For example, they
have no problem,
00:56:31:08 - 00:56:38:22
for a Zionist officer, a pilot, to kiss his children in
the morning
00:56:39:03 - 00:56:41:08
to spoil them, pat
them, play with them,
00:56:41:08 - 00:56:43:09
sing to them, feed them,
and take them to school.
00:56:44:02 - 00:56:47:14
And in the afternoon, to go and bomb a school in
Gaza and kill children.
00:56:47:14 - 00:56:50:02
No problem, at all.
00:56:50:20 - 00:56:52:13
They are perfectly
okay with that scenario.00:56:52:24 - 00:56:56:13
And they also have no problem telling you that
the Zionist entity
00:56:56:13 - 00:57:01:14
or Tel Aviv is one of the most gay-friendly
cities in the world,
00:57:01:18 - 00:57:06:11
they welcome them, but in the evenings they
go confiscate land,
00:57:06:11 - 00:57:07:22
demolish homes,
and kill people.
00:57:08:05 - 00:57:12:16
Or a Zionist politician who brags that his wife
is a feminist
00:57:12:23 - 00:57:17:04
but in the same breath tells you it's
forbidden for a Jew
00:57:17:04 - 00:57:19:02
to marry a Palestinian or an Arab,
00:57:19:10 - 00:57:22:10
“These are not humans, how can you even
think of such marriages?”
00:57:22:20 - 00:57:24:10
So I focused on all of this
00:57:24:10 - 00:57:27:10
the moral, intellectual, and
philosophical schizophrenia
00:57:27:10 - 00:57:29:07
through the
character of Or Shapira.
00:57:29:07 - 00:57:30:15
In the story, Or Shapira
00:57:31:23 - 00:57:36:07
asks unethically of the Palestinian to help him
become human.
00:57:36:15 - 00:57:39:14
Mariam Fatim tells him: "I'm not
going to help you become human.00:57:39:14 - 00:57:42:19
It's not my job, it's not something I do. You have
to do that yourself.
"
00:57:43:04 - 00:57:46:11
But what I tried to do
through part two was to
00:57:46:19 - 00:57:50:11
deconstruct this Zionist
racist structure,
00:57:50:11 - 00:57:52:23
in order to know
how to reclaim myself.
00:57:54:03 - 00:57:55:17
That’s the external identity,
00:57:55:17 - 00:57:58:01
which emerges during the
struggle with the Zionist.
00:57:58:03 - 00:57:59:12
But there’s also the
internal identity.
00:57:59:20 - 00:58:03:23
One day I'll be able to achieve liberation through
internal identity.
00:58:04:03 - 00:58:06:07
A friend recently asked me:
00:58:06:15 - 00:58:09:22
"Bassem, when will you
smile a genuine smile?
00:58:10:08 - 00:58:14:19
A smile that isn't a message directed
at the Zionist?”
00:58:15:02 - 00:58:16:17
A smile you give...
00:58:16:17 - 00:58:18:19
Without deriving
your value from it.
00:58:18:19 - 00:58:21:01
100%, when will you detach?
00:58:21:10 - 00:58:24:18I said: "One of these days, I
will laugh, smile, be happy
00:58:25:03 - 00:58:26:12
without any connection to them.
00:58:26:15 - 00:58:28:18
Not because he provoked
you, not because of him”
00:58:28:18 - 00:58:31:08
because he won't exist as a
coloniser in that moment.
00:58:33:06 - 00:58:40:13
You also focus heavily on the idea of the victim
becoming the executioner.
00:58:40:22 - 00:58:44:05
Yes, exactly. And it also caught my attention
when I was reading
00:58:44:05 - 00:58:50:08
about your trial, that you told the judge, or
whoever...
00:58:50:08 - 00:58:53:06
Yes, this was 21 years ago. To the judge, there
were three of them.
00:58:53:09 - 00:58:57:02
Yes, you told him something similar, tell us more
about that moment.
00:58:57:03 - 00:58:59:17
From the beginning,
00:59:00:00 - 00:59:02:23
I was raised with a left-wing
Marxist upbringing,
00:59:02:23 - 00:59:04:15
and I belong to a leftist party.
00:59:05:09 - 00:59:06:17
There's none of this racism,
00:59:06:17 - 00:59:10:12
I don't resist the Zionist
because he's Jewish.
00:59:11:12 - 00:59:17:04
Or that I fight him merelybecause he's classified as Jewish.
00:59:17:04 - 00:59:18:18
No, I fight
against a coloniser.
00:59:18:21 - 00:59:21:21
Regardless if it’s an American, Arab, or
Chinese coloniser
00:59:22:21 - 00:59:24:12
I fight a coloniser that is
present on the land.
00:59:25:12 - 00:59:29:02
When they arrested me, they tried me
in a military court.
00:59:29:02 - 00:59:32:17
Giving an unjust and invalid verdict with no
meaning or value.
00:59:33:10 - 00:59:35:03
They gave me an opportunity to
speak before sentencing,
00:59:35:03 - 00:59:36:22
three judges were preset
in the military court.
00:59:36:22 - 00:59:38:19
I spoke, and among
what I said was:
00:59:39:12 - 00:59:44:06
"You have killed my humanity, it was
you who killed it.
00:59:44:06 - 00:59:45:05
It wasn’t me who killed it.
00:59:45:10 - 00:59:48:05
If I fought, carried
a rifle, and resisted
00:59:48:15 - 00:59:49:17
it was because
of your existence.
”
00:59:50:06 - 00:59:54:07
And the rifle is not a human matter, it's
a weapon.00:59:55:08 - 00:59:58:22